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yb+ys season 2: episode 3

Data-Driven Brand Storytelling

with Alexzandria Cormier-Hill

Director of Content Marketing, Teach for America

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Being a data-driven storyteller is now an imperative in content marketing. Alexzandria Cormier-Hill, Director of Content Marketing, at non-profit Teach For America, joins the podcast this week sharing her insight about why data and authenticity are critical for great brand storytelling and building positive marketing communities.

About Our Guest

For the past 10+ years, Alexzandria Cormier-Hill has used her love for storytelling, community, and data to create compelling, relevant, and forward-thinking marketing experiences for customers nationwide. She’s worked with brands such as Teach For America and Blavity and was listed as one of Houston’s Top 100 Social Media Influencers. By centering people in all of her marketing efforts and living by her life-motto “ Stand Out. Do Good.”, Alex has developed a system of success that leaves her customers (and coworkers) feeling educated, equipped, and empowered.

Season 2: Episode 3

podcast transcripts

0:53 Megan Ingram (MI): For the past 10 year-plus years, Alexzandria Cormier-Hill has used her love of storytelling for community and data to create compelling, relevant, and forward-thinking marketing experiences for customers nationwide. She's worked with brands such as Teach For America, Blavity, and was listed as one of Houston's top 100 social media influencers. Today, she joins the Your Brand. Your Story. Podcast and we talk about why data and authenticity are critical for great brand storytelling and building positive marketing communities. Great to have you on today. 

1:24 Alexzandria Cormier-Hill (ACH): Yeah. I am excited. Thanks for having me. 

1:27 MI: Yeah. I'm super excited myself, but this is going to be a fun one. It's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. Before we dive into brand storytelling and all the things and building better marketing communities, I’d love to hear about your digital marketing path from blogger to now Director of Marketing for one of my favorite nonprofits, Teach For America.

1:49 ACH: Yeah. So I started blogging honestly, out of frustration, not necessarily a venting kind of blog. I wanna say it was maybe a year or so out of college. I really appreciated how the student organization that I was in helped with my professional development and how that helped me with professional connections and networks. And how I saw myself growing as a professional post graduation. I also kept in touch with some friends and some people still in college and it kind of frustrated me that they didn't take those things to their advantage, but also it really frustrated me that the organization didn't necessarily position itself as a place to lean in with leadership skills. Most things that I saw in terms of platforms talking about those things in regard to student organizations. They kind of focused on partying, performances, and stuff like that. It was boring, basically this is all that we are. And so I started writing about my experiences in college and how I used an organization and certain opportunities to set myself up for success after graduation. Then I started getting a little deeper into some of these areas not optimized by the organization. This is how organizations on campus can put together workshops or different content for their students to build on these leadership skills. I gave them content to use. I didn't really send it to anybody. And just like, if anybody reads this blog, it’s there. And so in the process of doing that, one of my blogs went viral. Because there's a lot of things that nobody talks about within a public space, but in all my group chats and Facebook groups and everyday conversations, it was things we talked about all the time. I was like, okay, that's interesting. And it's like, well, how do I redo this? And where can I redo this from a brand perspective? And so with every job opportunity that I've had, I had to dig into what we are talking about and how does this actually tap into the everyday conversations that people are having, the everyday habits that people have? And how can we optimize this to where it fits into their lifestyle. This is what I am doing at Teach For America as a Director of Content Marketing. I help come up with copywriting and strategies for connecting all our different audiences whether it's donors,  prospective, core members, or even the current teachers and alumni, really trying to come up with different content that really resonates with their life. How can we help you as an organization, and what is it that's going to help you? And how can we present that in a really intriguing and authentic way?

5:08 MI: That's so awesome. Like I said, we're all about authentic storytelling, and obviously you mentioned that you are an avid brand storyteller. Why do you believe data and authenticity are key pillars in building great content marketing and marketing communities at large?

5:27 ACH: Yeah. So I think data is such an untapped resource. I feel like when people hear data, they either think that there's so much of it, or they don't know where it is. They assume they don't have that. Data is just information. It is collected information that you're supposed to use as a reference to make informed decisions. And so a lot of times we'll think of data as these little numbers, a bunch of stats and stuff. And people are like, I don't know, statistics, I don’t want to dig into that. But the numbers, and just like observational data, it tells stories. It tells how people naturally are inclined to behave and think and feel. So whenever you're able to actually tap into that, even a small subset of it, you're able to get a deeper understanding of who you're talking to, why you're talking to them, where you should be talking to them, when you should be talking to them and all those things. Then you're able to think, with this kind of content would fit well with this person's life at this particular time. Whenever they see it, it's not a sales kind of like, oh my God! I needed that. Why wasn't this in my life earlier? And they just go ahead and take it on for themselves. Whenever you're able to really dig into the data, and not use it as a selling point, but using it as a serving point, you're able to see how you can authentically connect with your audiences in ways in which they'll see it as Ah, thank God, this is here. And not Oh, this person is trying to sell me something.

7:05 MI: Yeah. Touching on that, I've found that data literacy is an important part. Getting people within the organization to understand what that all means. Have you been through an experience where it wasn't received the way you wanted it to, or had received pushback on using data in that way? 

7:25 ACH: That's a good question. I have. When it's the raw data, right? So you have to say “Oh you gave me a whole bunch of graphs and statistics. I don't know what this means. I don't know what you're sending it to me. I am not a numbers' person”. And I think also the concept of data just seems so convoluted, confusing and intimidating, people don't want to deal with it at all.

7:53 (voiceover) MI: There's a disconnect happening between brand reception versus what consumers actually say, a recent Marketing Dive article cited an overwhelming 92% of marketers believe that most or all of the content they create resonates as authentic with consumers. So brands largely believe that they are creating authentic content. But the interesting part of this study says yet the majority of consumers disagree. With 51% percent saying less than half of brands create content that resonates as authentic. So while we, as brands and agencies and the people who create content feel that we are truly creating authentic content, it's not resonating with consumers. It doesn’t feel real. They're not getting that connection out of what we're creating. So how can we change that? How can we truly create content that people respond to, engage with, and want to create conversations with? 

8:59 ACH: One of the things I recently did actually, and we are also trying to learn how to use data more effectively here, all the data that we're getting from our analytics team, put it into a visualization of different, fun infographics of things that people love and photographs. That's why they're so popular. It makes data easy to understand and fun. So if you put it in a format like that, and if you put it in a visualization, that's fun and that breaks down the concept into simple terms. In a language in which the person that you're talking to understands and uses, then it's an easier sell because they're like, oh, I know what that is. I understand what that is. So what I'm trying to do. Okay. I get it now. 

9:48 MI: Yeah. A hundred. I totally agree. 

9:51 ACH: Yeah. 

9:52 MI: You talked about the importance of being a “narrative creator”, what does this mean to you, and how does this help you find, define and refine a brand story? 

10:03 ACH: Good question. So I am an avid believer that you can create your own story. You don't have to let other people tell your story for you, whether as a personal brand, a corporate brand, how you move and groove with, is up to you and how people perceive you is up to you. That's my belief, but you can do that by tapping into your core beliefs. What do you want to stand for at the end of the day, if someone mentions your name, what do you want to come to mind? And then you use that to guide all of your decisions. I believe when, and I think in regard to corporate entities, they usually use that for the mission and the vision. But how often do you really actually live into your mission and build on it on an everyday basis? You rarely hear about it. You may hear about it onboarding, but that's probably about it. But one of the things that I often do, is I use that to guide my work. I have it in my checklist. How does this play into this mission? How does this play into the vision? How does this play into the core values? And if it doesn't match that, I don't do it.

11:17 MI: One of the interesting projects I ever worked on, on the agency side was, they took all the company's mission statements for the top 50 brands and looked at their social media and said, do the two align? Because so often a company will say, Hey, this is what I'm about in like two to three sentences. But then when you go and you look at their social media, you don't feel that. I always use Nike as the classic example. They inspire, and motivate athletes. And every time you look at their posts, every time you see them, you feel that about their brand, but not all brands are doing that. And quite often you find that's not the case.

11:52 ACH: Right. And I think it's because it goes from a place of a selling mindset to a service mindset. Like Nike wants to serve the athletes. They need these athletes to perform, and they want them to feel confident. They want them to feel secure and powerful. And so all of your content has to, one, you have to believe that they can be that. And then once you believe that they can be that, then everything else flows from that. I think if brands made that an everyday alignment, it'd be easier to create content that really helps them control the narrative even when someone says, oh, I don't really think they live into that. There's a slew of people who are going to be like, no, no, no, no, no. We have receipts. We have examples of how they actually read into this mission and vision. 

12:35 MI: Yeah, I totally agree. 

12:37 MI (voiceover): I want to take that Nike example, a step further. And call out the Nike and Colin Kaepernick campaign that they created. And just for those of you who aren't familiar with it, I would think the majority are because it got a lot of attention. It had the campaign tagline believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything, #justdoit. It was a highly political moment. They received a lot of backlash and negativity on it. But at the end of the day, I think it is a great example about how you can create authentic connections with consumers. They understood their consumers. They created a big moment regardless of what the risk was by creating that campaign. And at the end of the day, they were able to drive 163 million in earned media, a 6 billion brand value increase and a 31% boost in sales. So for those of you out there who say, community management and authenticity, it doesn't drive ROI. The proof is right there. It does. You just gotta be willing to take that risk and believe me, you will see the rewards.  

13:49 MI: So, using data and authenticity, how would you say marketers can build better content across their entire marketing lifecycle? 

13:58 ACH: Data can really help you dig into the day-to-day kind of activities and facts. When we think about marketing and storytelling. We're always thinking about the initial sale;  the acquisition side of things, like how do we get this person to buy our stuff? And then after it's - Thanks for buying from us. You just, leave it at that until you have another sale or promotion or whatever, but no one really thinks of that. But I wish marketers would think more about how to tap into the everyday activities of the audience and then use data to inform that. So I'm trying to think of a good example. There is this fitness guru that I follow. Her name is Kira Alicia. She started off as a YouTuber doing fitness videos, and now she has her own program. And one thing she does is tap into those everyday feelings what people going on their fitness journey have. So you need these DVDs. Yes. But also, I need a support group. So she'll send us to a Facebook group where we have all these women uploading their videos and their stories that keeps us motivated. She'll send us little reminders like, Hey girl, I don't want anything. I just want to tell you to keep going. And those are the things that you feel whenever you're on your fitness journey. Things like I don't know if I can do this. I don't feel like doing it. And she says, “You can, you will, and you have support in all these different places to help you get there”. I think by knowing what the normal struggles are for people going through their fitness journey, she taps into that and then creates content and systems to help you when you're going through those everyday situations. I think if businesses did that more, typically. Looking at a customer; What is their day to day? How are they interacting with our platforms and our content already? What do we want them to do? What would they actually like, that we're not doing? And what data is informing that? Are we seeing different engagement metrics that aren't being met, surpassing our expectations, or even any observations? If you're talking to your sales team, what are they saying? Whenever you bring up so-and-so, what are they not? And getting that information and then taking it back to the drawing board. Check, during this particular time of their life, they're feeling this way, they're acting this way. What they're seeing and experiencing outside our product, how can we create content that helps them in that space to ease and optimize their space? And then you do that for the most imperative parts of their life cycle in terms of decision-making, and how it's going to optimize their life. But then of course, you are in business, you need to make sure it optimizes your bottom line, but the more you help people in my experience the more that also helps you in the end, because they see you as, I don't want to say a godsend. That’s just arrogant, but they can see you as something that's really valuable to them. And then vice versa. They'll be valuable to you. 

17:42 MI: You talked about the difference between acquisition versus retention. I couldn't agree more, retention is often overlooked because acquisition feels so sexy to a degree. Often you have this customer, they buy this thing. And a lot of times it just stops. You're not like doing anything with them. You're not nurturing them, engaging with them, nor building them into social ambassadors. so to speak. And so, applying that to some of the different customer touch points, how do you see that being different for retention versus acquisition?

18:19 ACH: I think with retention, you have a much easier time actually making more content that's valuable, but also increasing your business because you have a captive audience. 

18:36 MI (voiceover): The little things really matter. Message personalization is the number one tactic used by email marketers to improve performance according to Hubspot. Now why is that? It's because creating a personalized and customized message really resonates with consumers and the community that you're targeting. It makes people feel like, wow, they took an effort, a step, they did something that they didn't have to do, and your audience is really appreciative and responds to that. And ultimately it's one of the driving forces between not only retaining customers, but creating brand ambassadors that rave about your brand. 

19:18 ACH: I'm buying into whatever you're selling for whatever reason. You showed that by making a purchase. Once you have them, in your domain or whatever, you can dig into them. How did you find us anyway? What made you want to purchase from us? What was going on at that certain time? Do you have friends that actually go through something similar that you think they need to help? How would they need help? Giving them incentives helps. But the most effective thing is making them feel like a community. I'm trying to think of an example of that. So let me see. There is an artist. I always butcher his last name when I should not. Let me use another one. There is an artist that I follow. His name is Big Craig. I love him, a music artist. And so I think the first time that I was at a concert of his, and it was amazing. But I also didn't know that they also have a Facebook group for that. There's a whole bunch of creators in there really supporting him. But then he's like, do you know anybody who would like this music or who would like to be a part of a certain club that has X, Y, and Z features. They played to people who are into lyricism and creativity and also who were Southern. We were like, yeah, they're like, yeah, bring them on. We might have a nice little private setting for y'all to have a concert. I'm part of the community. I want to bring some more people into this. So I naturally became an ambassador. I love it. I love the team. I like the community. It feels like a team. And I want other people to experience what I'm experiencing. When you're trying to create that bond on the front end, with the acquisition people are like, I don't know you, we don't have a connection. It's like dating. Why are we asking you all these intimate questions? We haven't even gone out for coffee. You stop. Once you go out on a date, you make that first interaction, then you start getting deep into other things that you like. What other aspirations do you have? How could I be more of a service to you? Using that data and engaging them on a consistent basis helps them. One, helps you stay top of mind with them. So they also know that you value what they're giving you and telling you because they see it implemented in your content and your offerings. They also feel in some way they know you because you've engaged with them so many times that they naturally want to say, “Hey, well, this brand does so-and-so”, “you would probably like this because we've talked about this”, “you should join”. That's how the referrals work.

22:31 MI: I think that's a great point too, about authenticity and finding those ways to connect with people naturally and organically, because oftentimes that's what creates the best engagement.  

22:44 MI (voiceover): Authenticity equals trust. The latest Gustavson Brand Trust Study found that trust had declined for almost all brands. And further, it discovered that while trusting key institutions has been eroding significantly over the past few years, we need not look no further than the state of our current political environment, the average brand trust score for all brands surveyed in 2020 was at an all-time low. Listen, people are very skeptical right now. They don't feel like people are being honest and real with them and the brands that are able to create that connection and genuinely show people, Hey, this is who we are. Aligning again, we go back to what we were saying earlier with the mission statement. Those are the brands that will win.

23:41 MI: Talking a little bit more about marketing communities, how can we as marketers build better marketing communities?

23:47 ACH: That's a good question. I think one can build better marketing communities by actually using data, referencing it often, and letting that drive our decision-making. Another good thing that we can do as marketers, is look at how other industries are doing things that are similar to us. They'd be adjacent to see if we can learn different things. So an example is - the marketers have a customer journey that we follow. It has all the different sessions, like acquisition, and they're learning about things; considering all the good stuff, but at every different point we're trying to put content there to sell. That's usually how marketers look at it. But if you study how designers and UX thinkers put products and services together, it's all from a human behavior and service mindset. Like the user actually used this app that we’re creating, why are they coming here? How do they naturally work with them? An app like this, they're always thinking about how to improve and make things better based on habits and motivations. And their customer journey is named the same thing, but they think differently through all those stages. And so I'm like, Ooh, I want to do it this way because they are service oriented and willing to make sure that people can actually use this product. I think marketers stepped outside ourselves. And not only saw ourselves like marketing experts, but marketing explorers? What are some other ideas that we're not considering? I think that can make us a stronger and more compelling community because one, and we're not selling things the same way every single time. You have a myriad of different examples of how you can approach things in a way that's exciting for you as a marketer, but also it creates really awesome experiences for your customers. 

26:09 MI: So, how would you say you're doing this at Teach For America and what are some challenges you've run into? 

26:11 ACH: Good question. I'm trying to think of a good example of how we have done this. When all of the chaos happened and summer 2020 with George Floyd, in terms of protests, there were so many things happening around that particular incident and because we catered to black and brown communities in helping students elevate their learning, our whole network wanted to know if we were going to say anything about this, how we were going to say stuff about this, what was our stand and what we're going to be doing about it. Specifically our prospects, because they're younger, they're gen Z, they don't play. They're very socially conscious and they were asking us, too. So we took the questions they had, the concerns that they had, things they wanted to talk about. And we're like, okay, how can we address this at this moment for them? But also, how can we explore this ourselves as an organization? And we ended up coming up with this concept called “pop class,” and it's literally a pop up class that we had. We had all these subject-matter experts come in and speak on different things that they wanted to hear about. So it wasn't us speaking about it. It was people that we were aligned with. Some of them are alumni, and other experts in their field coming in and using our platform to talk about things that our prospects wanted to hear about. And then in addition to that was my favorite part where we had an open chat throughout the sessions, the video sessions. When I tell you these kids were going in, with all these ideas, all these questions, they formed book groups, they formed offsite meetups, they took it to a whole other level where they deepen their passion for social justice, pretty much on their own, but it was sparked by, or rather contributed by that kind of activity. It was because we listened to what they were saying and looked at the historical data that we have from other kinds of content, like newsletters and social media. We looked at the metrics in terms of what performed the best in social justice topics combined with the different submissions that they were sending us. This is how we can probably address this; let's see how this works, and it took off. When we take surveys, at the end of their application processes, why they decided to join. A lot of people mentioned that piece of content, like pop class. That's a  good example of how we were able to use that. Now we're trying to learn how to do that more consistently. And I think one of the things that could also help other marketing teams is being really close to your data people. Setting up regular meetings with them and having them break down the metrics that you need to understand so that you can do your work. So we're starting to do that and some visualizing to make sure that we understand what we're actually saying; what the data means to our team. Then using what the analytics team said, based on the data that we have.  Here's how we can move to improve this specific piece of content or even create a new product that elevates these conversations that our audience is having.

30:13 MI: That's such a great example. I also think it's a great example of how a community is about the people. They are the ones that make it come alive. Not necessarily the actions you take.If you're doing it right, do things like you're saying. It helps create the environment, but it's the people in those connections that really make it larger than what.

30:35 ACH: Yeah. And that's, when you really know that you have something really good, because I wish you could assume that chatting was going a mile a minute. I know I'm not a prospect, but can I join your book club? I was able to learn from them, too. That's another thing too, as marketing professionals, you have to humble yourself and learn from your audience. You are an explorer. These are their everyday problems or aspirations that they're thinking about on a constant basis. And you're a subset event, a possible solution, not the only solution. So there's always things that you can learn from them to figure out how you can do your job better. Not just trying to get them to, sell

31:18 MI: But again, that's where data comes in. Right. Because you could have a gut, what you think it's gonna be, then it's like, okay, is it right? Is it wrong? And sometimes, maybe it is a proof point and okay. My guts’ right. But other times it's oh, well we were really off. This is the direction we should take based on what you're seeing. And I think that's really where data can have a huge impact on the direction that you're taking as an organization. 

31:45 MI (voiceover): Community is driven by the consumer. Not the brand. Consumers are 2.4X more likely to say user generated content is authentic compared to brand created content. What really drives positive, authentic community building happens at the consumer level. It happens with your customers, your potential customers, your advocates. They're the ones who lead the charge. And if you're doing it right. Like in the example that Alexzandria just said, when you create content that is fueled by your consumers, by the people that you're targeting. That's when you'll truly get authentic community building. 

32:29 MI: Well, I did want to touch on, cause I know one of your core missions is to help individuals and small business owners to create and dictate their narratives in unique and profitable ways. I wanted to talk a little bit about how you are doing this and why this is so important to you.

32:43 ACH: I want people to dig into their individual stories, using your core values, your core beliefs to really drive everything that you do. I feel like that’s the easiest way to get attention, build a community, but also as marketing to try and get attention. When you are able to lead from that point of view, everything else comes easier to you because you know exactly what you want to talk about, who you want to talk to. Who's going to resonate with that message? Who's going to amplify your message? And you know, the same people who are going to reflect that to you, learn something and take that in for themselves. It's like a reciprocal kind of exchange in regards to  your customers and you as a content platform or a corporation or non-profit or whatever you are. I think tapping into that was really powerful because it also just flows easier. When we first introduced or when we first started talking, like, I knew that you loved that, by the way that you talked about that. And I could tell that our conversation would be easy because you're talking to someone who speaks your language, but it's also because it's something that you really believe in. When you're able to solidify that and then use data to find out where those people are, who can vibe with you like that. Once you find that community, how you can best serve them and how they can also help you in the long run. It gives you a constant state of ideas, potential product offerings, and just different ways to serve. You always know where they are, their different parts of their lives. So you're always relevant to each other and so you don't really have to worry about the acquisition because times also changed too. Right? So you can be growing with the same audience, but there are new people and new ideas, and new things happening all around you all the time. All those things did change, but values hardly do. So those values can help you sustain through all these different changes and bring in new people with new ideas and new problems that you can help solve. It helps you stay sustainable as a business in the long term. 

35:29 MI: Yeah, I think at the heart, that's what content marketing is about, right? It's about staying true to your brand values, your brand principles, whatever those things are that you want to stand for. Like creating new ideas, creating new ways of doing it, finding you know, new quality content, so to speak that can really connect with those people.

35:46 ACH: Yeah, I think that's the great thing about being in the marketing space. At least for me, things are always changing and you can either embrace the change or you can go against it, but if you go against it, you're going to get left. That's how Blockbuster got left behind, but you have to. And that's the good thing about data because data will tell you where things are going. Right. And so instead of just being like, I don't really know about that, that's not what we do when you stick to your core values. When you believe in your core values, you're set on a mission and not like a tactic. And if you're able to shift into this new digital space, is your mission still intact? Is your vision still intact? Then experiment and let your audience tell you what they want to see. It doesn't have to be a big project or a piece of content. It can be a small improvement that it's in a digital space that really helps elevate their lives. Then you can get feedback from them in terms of; did this actually help? What would you like to see more of? What kind of things are confusing to you that you want to see less of? And you go from there, and you're always growing with your community now. 

37:06 MI: That's a great point. And one of the things you could look at, for example, we see a lot  of videos in the platforms, you've got Clubhouse, you've got Twitter Spaces, you've got all these things coming out and there are new ways that you can explore with different types of content, but at the heart, your content values, the things that you talk about, the things that you prioritize should always be the same. Well, what's the rest of your roadmap looking like for 2021? 

37:34 ACH: What's the rest of my roadmap, looking at my girl. Let me see. At work, I am trying to figure out what's the easiest way to visualize data. That's my little passion project as of late. It's been fun for me just because I love talking to people who love data. Me and the data people are like besties, and I’m trying to figure out a way to systemize that, where not only our team can use it, but the other marketing teams can also emulate a similar system that works for them in terms of the content and the products that they're coming up with. So that's one thing. I'm also trying to see if I can get certified in this concept called Charrettes and it's for the community. I think it's called a Community Decision Design. Where you take, people, from opposite sides of a particular topic. And you bring them together to problem-solve something. You take all their truths from opposite sides; all their issues and you combine that into, okay, how can we align in some of these areas? What are the most important areas that you think we should concentrate on? And based on what data, what sentiments and then how can we together go forward to make a unified decision that benefits the community as a whole, from these opposing sides?

39:08 MI: That's really awesome.

39:09 ACH: I forgot. I learned about it from this movie called the Best of Enemies. It's a really good movie about a civil rights leader and the KKK leader. Who had to come together and come up with I think it was a policy for where the black children should go because their school had burned down and they had to come together to problem solve. When I saw that, I felt like that happens in our everyday interactions at work. You have opposing teams, who don't want to work together. They want to do things differently. So how can I use that same concept to bring folks together to make a decision that benefits all the parties? That's another example of using something else outside my field to help me inform how I work. I'm going to be starting that soon, and I'm really excited and just digging into different Information and leadership professional development that follows along those lines. How can I use data to make better decisions and better informed decisions that benefit a good majority of people? That way we can continue making bigger impacts. That's what I'm focusing on for the rest of 2021. 

40:31 MI: That's so awesome. That project that you're working on, that's a really interesting way of looking at culture and problem-solving. All those types of things. So, yeah. That sounds like a fun project. 

40:42 ACH: Thank you. 

40:44 MI: Well, where can listeners find you? 

40:47 ACH: You can find me on LinkedIn as Alexzandria Cormier-Hill. I'm also on Twitter @Chill_TheCre8or. That's mainly where I talk about audience engagement, everything, branding, and marketing. I love to connect on those two platforms specifically because I think they're underutilized to Facebook. I love LinkedIn, so please connect with me on LinkedIn. 

41:35 MI: Well definitely connect with her. It was absolutely great having you on today. Super fun chatting with you. Wish you the best in the future and on this project that you're working on. 

41:49 ACH: Thank you. If there’s anything that I can do to support you and your podcast and your brand let me know. I'm a fan. You're my data friend now.

41:57 MI: Awesome. Well, again, thank you so much. And it was a pleasure having you on today. 

42:05 ACH: Same. Thank you.

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